The Friday Five, Episode 11: Tom Webster & Christopher Penn

You're listening to The Friday 5 with Tom Webster. Find past episodes and how to subscribe at the Friday5.com. And now here's your host, Tom Webster. Hello and welcome to the Friday 5, episode 11. I'm not sure, Chris Penn, what anniversary 11 is.

We had we had diamond and tin last week. So I think this whatever is more valuable than diamond, unobtainium. Unoptainium. I believe it's a steel. Steel.

Steel and jewelry. Well, uh, did you bring me any steel jewelry? I did not bring you any steel jewelry, but I have a possibly dis disturbingly large collection of steel knives, and I can gladly loan you one of them. Your collection and the fact that you own it are both equally disturbing to me. So we're talking with uh with my friend Chris Penn.

Uh Chris is absolutely one of the smartest people I know, someone who I truly respect, and also has some very eclectic music tastes. And he sent me a delicious list of five plus a guilty pleasure. And I actually I think your guilty pleasure is not a guilty pleasure at all. It might you might feel some guilt about it, but but I would not feel so guilty about it, Chris Penn. Um, but before we get started, I think a lot of people are gonna know your your first song.

Uh where where did you grow up? I grew up in uh New Jersey. Uh in a uh if you are a New Jersey native, it was exit 17 off of I78. If you're not New Jersey native, it's uh somewhere in northwestern New Jersey. Uh we reference everything by the highway exits we are near.

That's right. I I used to live in Princeton, so I know about the exit thing, although Princeton was not really near an exit. I say it's not near anything. It's not near anything, no. Uh, and that's and that's in fact part of Princeton's town motto.

Not near anything. Uh and I know you were you're a proud FNM grad. I wouldn't say proud, but I am uh an FM graduate, yes. I uh I have a political science major, which uh it has been fantastic uh as a uh as a career builder for absolutely nothing. I've I've been to the fine campus of FM.

I did uh I did some graduate work in English lit, which was equally helpful to me uh at Penn State. So I've I've been to FM and it's a it's a lovely campus. So it is. It's a wonderfully well manicured place. And you uh were probably almost thrown out of it numerous times.

Many, many times. In fact, uh fairly close uh uh uh my junior year um because the school uh had a general prohibition against things unsafe and uh repelling off the back of your dormitory was one of those things that was included, so was um having a a large supply of Japanese uh war swords, so also somewhat discouraged. I'm pretty sure that was in the catalog when you applied, Chris Penn. So you know they they don't put they the my life has been characterized by people making rules in my wake. None of those things were in the catalog.

Well, as I often like to say, some of us are here to serve as examples and others as horrible warnings. And maybe maybe you're the latter, maybe you're the former. Uh whichever this is the case, I think we should move on to your first song. And boy, if you don't know the stirring notes of the John Williams Imperial March, then you've lived under a rock for about 40 years. Um this is obviously, you know, to most people, this is the most recognizable piece of quasi-classical music that I've ever heard in their lives.

Maybe the maybe the only one. But it's uh but it's it's incredibly evocative. Um I know exactly where I was when I heard that music for the very first time. I know exactly where I was. Uh where were you when you heard that music for the first time?

I was at home because I actually didn't see the Star Wars films uh in the theaters. I saw them at home uh you know later on afterwards. Where my family was not big theater goers, um, and I have never quite overcome my uh distaste for large public gatherings. Uh now uh just one of those one of those weird personality quirks. But uh I uh this didn't really resonate with me.

The the piece of music itself didn't really resonate with me until um until you know my later years, like college and and so on and so forth. One of the things that has always been uh fascinating to me was some of the the villains, particularly uh Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars, they don't require explanation. And you know, one of the trends in in our society lately has been, you know, and this is sort of one of the deviations of the the new Star Wars films, is trying to explain away uh everyone's uh pension for evil as being uh you know result of a horrible upbringing or kidnapping by the Jedi or something. And there aren't uh you know, that makes, I guess, for a good for a longer movie or a better story, or gives writers something to write about in absence of having an actual plot. Um but the concept of a villain who's evil just because that's their nature, really is is what that song has has always meant to me.

And it's one of those things that it's one of two uh songs on my list, actually, that I listened to and I was saying to myself mentally before I go speak on stage, believe it or not, because it kind of it creates a sort of a sense of absoluteness that you you're not there, there's no doubt about your purpose about what you what you're there to do. You know exactly what uh what what is expected of you and uh and what your role is, and you just go out and you do it. Hmm. Interesting. Um yeah, they there was a I think an attempt to explain how Paul Patine turned like milk gone bad in one of those movies, right?

Like he was trying to bring somebody back to life, and so he had to learn the the terrible power of the dark side to do that. I I think they never explained that. He's just always been evil. And that to me is you know, because if you think about it, in in the real world, um there are some people who are just just like that. They are evil, and they are not evil you can bargain with, they are not evil that you can um you know appease.

They you you either have to stop them or you get run over. Now you don't strike me as an evil man, Chris Penn. Well, then I haven't struck you hard enough. Well struck. No, if you were if you were a Dungeons and Dragons alignment, I think I would call you chaotic good.

Am I am I right on that? Or chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutral is because uh you know that certainly um I've done things in my life and I've I've been in certain roles that are uh not especially honorable, not especially you know, good decisions made. And um, I've done things that uh that were and and I don't necessarily stay within the lines all that well.

Um so um so yeah, it's chaotic and neutral. I think you're you're a line obliterator, to the best of my knowledge. Well, like I said, they draw the lines after I've been through. So uh when you hear when you hear the Imperial March, uh, are you uh an Emperor Palpatine guy or are you a Darth Vader guy? I'm an Emperor Palpatine guy.

Like I said, there's he doesn't have to question his existence. He doesn't have to question um you know what he's there to do. He knows what he's there to do, and and he does it superbly well until uh his whining apprentice throws him down a large hole. Now, when you go on when you're about to go on stage, and I've seen you speak a number of times, and it's a a frenetic, hyperkinetic knowledge dump, uh the likes of which many people have never seen. Uh is this playing in your head?

Is this actually on your iPod or iPhone? Do you I mean, do you literally listen to this before you go on stage, or do you just sort of I usually listen to it the morning of yeah. Uh in fact, the first uh the first three songs are are ones that are all part of that uh that mix. Yeah, your your first three songs are uh probably the most eclectic trio that we've had that we've had here on the history of of the Friday 5, the brief history, the 11 episode long history. This the steel episode the steel and it's appropriate that you're here on the on the steel episode with your uh with your collection of steel.

Um the you you shared this great YouTube video with me of John Williams actually conducting this piece. Um and it is it's an incredibly evocative piece, right? You just you cannot mistake it when you hear it. Do you is there a specific story attached to this song, or is it just the general feeling that it gets you? It's the general feeling because like I said, I didn't really start to appreciate this until later in life, until I had a better understanding of of you know what my life was going to be about.

And it took a long time to figure that out. Looking back, the threads were always all there. Um, but it it took a lot of years and a lot of uh interesting turns and twists down uh down different career paths and and different friendships and relationships before I figured out you know kind of what I'm supposed to be doing. What are you supposed to be doing? Who is Chris Penn when Chris Penn is at home, as James Joyce would say?

I'm doing uh I am what I'm doing right now for now. Um that you know the eventual path um will lead me out of normal life, you know, probably in in uh in my later years, um uh eventually pursuing a um uh what's the reference term? Um ordination as uh as a Buddhist priest is is the eventual blueprint. So what uh I'm sure anybody who's followed you online knows that you have a fairly extensive martial arts background. Yes.

Uh what what school exactly of martial arts are you in and and what's your rank and how many people have you killed? I haven't killed any people yet that I know of. Um not directly anyway. Um I have been practicing now for 20 years in uh in this system called uh Bujinkan Budotaijutsu, which is colloquially known as ninjutsu or the art of the ninja, even though only three of the nine subsections of this particular system um come from from ninjutsu families uh in Japan. And I've been practicing since 1993.

It's actually a rather funny story um that comes out of my college years when I uh uh I was uh about to test for my black belt in a system called uh Ishinu Karate and uh gotten the the wrestling room floor on the first day of the martial arts club meeting us uh being uh 18 and and rather foolish. Um I said, well, you know, I'm almost a black belt, and this kid in front of me is a green belt. I'm gonna throw my tournament winning spinning around house kick, and uh, that'll be that, and and and that'll be a great first uh introduction to college, right? So I get out there and do my tournament winning, spinning around house kick, and my uh my my significantly lower ranked uh partner in a different system steps aside as my kick completely misses, punches me in the face, and I'm laying on the floor going, I'm gonna do what you do, because clearly what I do has absolutely no impact on you. And it was this particular system.

My introduction uh to it was uh uh humbling to say the least. That is a great story. And uh and and that is uh you know that that's how I got into the system, and it's been uh it's been 20 years this year, actually. And you are a you are a black belt? I am.

I tested in and passed in 2004. So your second song, uh, in keeping with this sort of trio of songs that you've that you've given me, is actually it's from World of Warcraft. It is. It's uh and I again anybody who follows you online and reads your writing knows that you're a very, very big world of warcraft player. But I have a theory about this.

You know, there are lots of people who play World of Warcraft because you know they're they're avid gamers or they like to get lost in the sort of the fantasy role play aspect of it. But I've read enough of what you've written about World of Warcraft that I have a theory about why you were so big in the world of Warcraft. I think it is your sandbox to test things about human psychology. You know, it it kind of is, but I really do appreciate the the lore in the story. And and one of the reasons why I picked this particular song is because this character, uh, the Lich King, who is the uh the titular villain villain of the second expansion, a Wrath of the Lich King, has been uh someone that uh has been a part of the video gaming fabric for you know now going on 11 or 12 years when uh he was uh the the villain of the Warcraft 3 expansion way, way, way back in the in the single player days.

And the story behind this this character and and the race of characters he created is one that resonates very strongly with me because it's it's kind of almost the epitome of the kind of personality you want to have sometimes, where you know, something like uh an Emperor Palpatine is an absolute, whereas something like you know, the the army of the death knights that the Lutch King created um are more there's no emotion involved in in any of what they do. Um they are simply you know ruthless, uh bloodless, frozenly cold killing machines. And that appeals to a certain part of my personality that you know when when things get especially tough, um they are you know something like that, a persona or an archetype like that is very helpful for settling your mind. Again, like I mentioned, it's one of those things where depending on um you know who I'm speaking to or what I'm doing, that that mental concept or that I guess almost figurehead kind of personality can help counteract you know things like anxiety or or questioning when you realize that you you know these characters, these these fictional constructs that have literally frozen blood. Well, it's funny, you know, when you mentioned emotionless, I think there's two connotations to that, right?

There's the the one that you just named, which is the uh the connotation, I suppose, that equates that with being cold-blooded. Uh and that's certainly what you just described. But there's also, I think, a very kind of uh Buddhist interpretation of that, which I don't think has that same connotation, right? That you don't uh invest yourself too fully one way or the other in an outcome. That doesn't mean you're passive.

I think I think actually far from it. But what's what's the aspect of that that that speaks to you the most? Both of them. So it's not only be attacking attached, not attached to your emotional state, but it's also about um you know, getting rid of it to some degree, because that may be what the situation calls for. Um I remember when I was uh 10 or 11 years old.

Uh I was uh in a car with my parents, and uh we were driving down this some some back road in New Jersey as as my father was wont to do. Uh we loved going on driving adventures. Well, he loved it, and the you know, me and my brother just kind of went along. Um and I remember seeing this, you know, looking out the window, because you know, it's always fun to be a backseat driver, and seeing this car in front of us swerving kind of kind of oddly on the road, and then you know, get to the bottom of this hill and just plows straight on first into uh into a tree. And you see uh you see the front windshield of the car, the glass just warps and is warps in the shapes of two heads because the people who are in it um they just they uh they were not wearing restraints.

This is this would have been 19 like 84, 85, something. You know, seat belts were were required, but um no one really enforced it back then. I wasn't even born yet. And and you just see the you know, these two enormous impacts, and you know, of course, my dad my father being a good citizen stops and gets out of the car and you know runs over to see what happened, and um found a nearby house and you know yelled at them to to call for the police and call for the an ambulance. And I just saw two people die immediately.

Wow. Um that's kind of shocking. You see, you know, this windshield kind of cave in, there's blood everywhere, and uh eventually turned out that I guess the driver was a senior citizen who had a heart attack and um and just lost control of the car, and and that was that. Um but seeing something like that, you know, can be a pretty startling wake-up to the nature of life to you know someone who's nine or ten years old. And so later on, you know, seeing these, you know, these these fictional characters that kind of offer uh a way to put those unsettling memories to rest for a while or to remove their impact is a pretty compelling thing.

So when you listen to that song, um, you know, again, whether it's the morning before you give a talk or just whenever you feel like you need that uh that power, that lift that it gives you. What are you using that for? I mean, what is what is the um what is it inspiring you to do? That one specifically is about when I feel that the room or the crowd is I I guess agitated would be a good way of putting it. Uh the they're they're not there, they're not present, or they are not confrontational, but um they they're looking for something that they're not going to find, and and they're all they're already been disappointed.

Uh, you and I were at a conference recently um together where there's one speaker on stage who was delivering an advertisement for his firm. Um and it was and you could tell you could feel the energy in the in the audience was agitated. They were not thrilled by the you know what was effectively an advertisement. Correct. And so, you know, mentally evoking that the feeling that that particular song delivers is a useful antidote to that.

It's it's to say, okay, look, there's we're gonna do here what we came to do, and not going to take it personally if if you know the crowd is in a in a bad state to begin with, but we'll we'll chill them out and we'll we'll get them to the point where they will get something useful out of it. You know, I I uh distinctly recall your talk at that conference. Um, and uh first of all, nobody likes selling from the stage. It still flabbergassed me that I see it in conferences like this. But um one of the things that really impressed me about your talk, which was uh as I recall immediately before cocktail hour.

Yes. Which uh I've had that slot many times, you've had that slot many times. It's not necessarily our best slots to work from. Um but uh I was impressed by the way that you settled everybody at the end. I mean, you went you actually had them do an exercise to be to be present.

I think being present is certainly very uh it's obviously very important to you. It's something that is a practice for me, you know, not to get too lost in your thoughts, I guess. Uh is that something that you've done a lot in your speaking, or was that sort of a you you pulled it out for a one-time use? Uh I do different things again, based on on the way the room feels, the way people feel. I at one conference, actually the entire session was a meditation session.

It was just uh disguised as a marketing talk uh at the web 2.0 conference, which was uh enormously entertaining. I had a different uh uh social conference I was at. I actually led people through a storytelling exercise, which comes out of a meditation tradition. Uh so it again, it's you have a whole bag full of tools and you pick out the things that you know make sense and and and fit the energy that you're given. Well, speaking of energy, your next song is one of the two most recognizable songs on your list.

Uh I will I will I will say it's the second most recognizable song, but it's but I'm also gonna say it's best of set. Um I don't love rap industry. Neither do I. But this song, uh MM's lose yourself, it's gotta be one of the greatest rap songs ever written. Right.

Certainly one of the most popular, certainly one of the most recognized, and I I would assume commercially uh one of the one of the better performing ones. Um but yeah, it to your point earlier, it's ex i this is the one that speaks to me most when either I or the room needs more energy. And they're and you know, it's it's the after-lunch, you know, food coma slot uh song. Um because people aren't anxious to go anywhere. You know, it's it's the the before cocktail hour was slot is the you know, you were all stands between people and the drinks.

So you'd better be good. Um the after-lunch song, uh, the after-lunch uh slot is the you'd better be good enough to keep people awake because their uh digestive systems are are actively working on countering you. Um it's uh there's an interesting uh sort of I guess story behind this song, and and uh there's one related to it. Um I had a friend uh growing up who uh was involved in uh a lot of gang violence, and uh, you know, rap was i in integral part of that culture. And listening to some of the things that they had had to endure as part of growing up, that made me recognize that you know it's a a lot of what these songs are about are the stories that in some cases the stories of of what people went through.

Um I remember my friend was telling me at one point uh as punishment for uh stealing from a fellow gang member. Um I guess you got uh you got your feet tied together and got dragged behind a car for a couple of city blocks and uh until uh I guess uh you had paid appropriate penance for for what it was you're supposed to have have done wrong. And uh and hearing stuff like that in the way that you know, I guess the the uh inhuman ways that humans are are to each other is part and parcel of of what I feel when I when I hear this song and and recalling the stories. And you know, uh at one point I had to uh I had to uh actively talk uh this friend of mine down from shooting themselves, uh, which is uh uh a task I hope no one ever has to have go through because it's uh incredibly painful and it takes a very long time. Uh took about a six and a half hour phone call.

Um but it's you know it's it uh in in the most positive light, when you when you transmute all those negative experiences, um it's a way of you know finding taking all the energy, all that potential of human beings and turning it into something that's actually useful. One of the uh strongest messages of that song, certainly the message of the of the movie from whose loins it's sprung. Uh but but certainly the message of that song, I think, is one that is very congruent with everything you've been saying so far, which is uh when you have doubts, when you have uh you know self-doubts, when you allow negative thinking to creep in your head. I mean, the message of this song is to lose yourself in into what you were doing at that moment. And do not allow those negative thoughts to stop you, right?

I mean, that's very much part of the message of that song. Do you grapple with with negative thinking like that at all? Oh, all the time. Yeah. What's what's it like inside Chris Penn's head on a few years?

Uh it's a very frightening place. It's a very, very frightening place. Um I'm sure that there's probably you know one or more clinical diagnoses, but uh you get by the best you can. My negative thoughts are not typically they're not self-doubt. Um they're they're more often like bizarre waking nightmares of things.

Um, you know, seeing absolutely horrible things happen to people around you. Um in some cases, you know, uh if it's a one of the waking nightmare, it's you know, actually doing those things to the those people around you and and getting rid, you know, getting past it. It took me a long time to figure out how to get past that. And uh I guess it's just a normal side effect of you know, when you practice certain martial arts or when you practice you learn how to do um incredibly damaging things to other human beings. And it's one of the reasons why you know the Buddhist training and the spiritual training is so integral to the martial arts training, because if you don't have those counterbalances, then all those all those capabilities that you have um become you know, they manifest themselves without any any balance, without any uh any way of counteracting them.

I was it uh ability breeds ambition, I think is the is the quote. And so when you have these capabilities to do horrible things to the the human beings around you and and you know break people in so many ways, you'd better have some way of tempering that. And and you know, I guess that's where a lot of that comes from. So yeah are there negative thoughts? Absolutely.

There's there's tons of them all the time. Um are they under control or are they channeled appropriately? Yeah, that's that they are, and that's the goal. Well, you know, uh here's something. Here's uh maybe this is not really a conflict, but you know, one of the things I know from both your marketing pursuits and also some of the things you write about uh you know gaming, you are you are you're like the Occam's razor, right?

You you're you are the kind of person that figures out a system and figures out how to optimize and or beat that system in the simplest in the simplest way possible. I mean, I think that's what makes you incredibly valuable as a marketer. Um how does that jive with your martial arts training, where you really you must pursue within a system, right? I mean, it's you're not out to find the shortest path through the system, it really rewards the journey. But the system itself is not the process, it's not the martial arts, the system that you're trying to understand and find the shortest path through is human beings.

Because you are the martial arts are a I guess a physical expression of all the all the conditions under which you would have to be horrible to another human being to save your own life or to save the life of the people you care about. And knowing how bodies break or how you how people's minds work uh under stress or how people make decisions, um, and being able to take advantage of those systems very, very quickly is absolutely essential. I mean, uh, there's this is one phenomenal example my teacher's teacher, Stephen Hayes does that um just g is a wonderful example of this. He shows uh you know uh this is a concept, there's a move called a bear hug where somebody just grabs you from behind and holds you and and and and uh you know holds your arms down and I can do that. I know you can, Tom Webster.

Um so the normal response is a whole bunch of techniques and you can do it and stuff like that. But he demoed this once on someone unsuspecting who um who had not uh seen this before. He just turns, looks over his shoulder and goes, Don't touch me like that unless you love me. And of course, knowing that you know this person probably um had uh you know certain cultural biases and stuff, screamed and let go of him and you know, like jumped like 20 feet away from him. Um that works.

Yeah, and and and you know, of course it provoked you know laughter from from the folks around, but you can totally see that working because it's taking advantage of a prejudice, it's taking advantage of uh you know a cultural mindset and getting yourself out of trouble without having to involve things that will eventually involve your lawyer. Um and so the uh the concept of you know finding shortcuts through the system is is still very appropriate. Now you can't shortcut the process of of becoming competent at the martial arts, but you can optimize how you would use them. If you weren't uh if you had not discovered the martial arts, what would be what would be the outlet for these passions of yours, do you think? What else, what what do you think you would be doing?

I'd be in jail probably, and I mean that in all seriousness, because I discovered you know at a very early age that I have a very bad temper. I have an incredibly violent temper. Um, and without being able to find healthy you know outlets to express that stuff, I'm fairly certain I would have gotten myself into a great deal of trouble. Well, you know what the antidote for that is? Billy Joel.

This is the third week in a row that we have had a Billy Joel song on uh on the podcast. So we can now call Billy Joel a friend of the podcast. Just just as Paul McCartney, Sir Paul McCartney is a friend of the podcast. There should be like an American equivalent to Knighthood, you know. I think it's called being a billionaire.

I don't think we can call Billy Joel a billionaire. No, no. But but Billy Joel, friend of the podcast, Billy Joel, makes his third consecutive appearance here with Piano Man. What's this? What is the story behind this song?

It's a great song, obviously. It is a great song. Um this this stems from a particular concert, the only uh music concert I think I've ever been to in my life, uh, yeah, at a major venue. I mean, I've been to plenty of you know coffee house shops and things like that. But you know, one where you pay an exorbitant fee and sit in you know uncomfortable seats for hours on end, um, sort of concert.

And this was 1993. Um I went to see the one of the last stops on the River of Dreams tour. Um, and he was playing a Nassau Coliseum. Yep. And of course, Piano Man is as those fans know is is the last song of the evening.

It's the encore song, it's the the one that uh you know is the the closer. And what was powerful about the song, I mean I'd heard it a gazillion times and stuff. What was powerful was not the song, but was the experience. There are there are thir, I think there are 30,000 people or so in in the stadium. And when he started in, you know, what after the the first uh verse and and into the first chorus, uh, as is tradition, you know, he stops and and the audience sort of takes over.

And just the feeling of being in 35,000 people or 30,000 people or however many it was, I don't even remember anymore. And feeling that large a body of humanity aligned and focused on one thing was a is almost a religious experience in the sense that I got a glimpse at you know at what 18 years old, 17 years old, I forget how old I was, of what humanity was capable of, what humanity could be capable of if we got out of our own way and unified for something. And it was absolutely unbelievable. Uh you know, it's it was like taking a bath in a lightning storm, um, where you realize just how just how amazing people could be if they got out of their own way. If they if they could put aside all the things that distract and uh divide and dilute us.

Wow, the amount of energy that we can focus on something is is amazing. What uh what led you to that concert exactly? Were you a fan of his or was it? I was a fan and so were some friends, some of us some friends of mine. We all went to uh as a group.

And um I I think the the significance of that moment from you know everyone I've talked to who goes to concerts, they kind of acknowledge that it's there, but they don't realize just how incredible that moment is when you feel a huge number of people on that. The second closest thing I can think of was actually um last year at Dream Force, uh, when Tony Robbins did a half day clinic with 10,000 people in the room. And you know, uh if you've seen Tony Robbins speak, you know that uh you know he he is an incredibly uh energetic and charismatic speaker and can get the crowd to do you know uh uh astonishing things. And it was a similar kind of feeling to realize, you know, this this is you know what people are capable of. And then of course, you know, me being me, the the flip side is you realize and understand why there are things like genocides, because when you have somebody who can unify people and can focus them to destructive ends, there are no limits other than you know uh you know the whoever opposes them, because you can see you see how people can be transformed into this um completely focused, dedicated horde that will do whatever you ask them to do.

You know, you can sing along a song or you can exterminate an a race. Well, that's cheerful, Chris Penn. It is cheerful. Well, I I love the the kind of uh aspect of this song that is the galvanizing of an experience. And that you know, that works because everybody has this shortcut, everybody has this thing that they share, which is this song.

Really, and that's the power of music, and that's that's part of what this whole show is about. Uh Bruce Springsteen can do that. You know, Bruce Springsteen has songs that everybody knows. And so it then becomes no matter what your politics are, no matter what your you know religious background, your morals or ethical system, you know this song. And so for that brief period of time, you're able to galvanize a crowd around that.

And I think that's what makes actually uh Tony Robbins such a remarkable outlier. Because when you go see Tony Robbins, you you don't have that song necessarily. Right, but you have the experience, but you have that experience. But but you do have that song in a way, it's just not uh he's able to find it. Um, and that's what you know when you go see someone like a Tony Robbins, it it is an incredibly galvanizing experience like that.

Um, when you listen to that song now, do you still do you use that song the way that you use the other three, or do you just no, it's not it's not part of my psychological uh repertoire. It's more of just uh a very strong memory, you know. We when uh when we started first started talking about the show and songs that make up the fabric of your life, that's one of those moments that uh isn't the past but is still relevant. Yeah, yeah. Well, um in the interest of time, we're going to move to your fifth song, which is by Yanni.

Now, before we get into Yanni, uh before I get into your song, I should say. Most people who know Yanni know two things about maybe three things about Yanni. Number one, he is a you know, new age performer, sort of the Doug Henning of keyboards. Uh I think that's a pretty good analogy, actually. I just I just made that up.

I'm proud of myself. He's the Doug Henning of Keyboards. Uh number two, he he was, maybe still is, I don't know, married to statuesque blonde Linda Evans from Dallas. And number three, he's about five foot two in heels. So all I can think of when I think of Yanni is he's studying.

I don't think of that. I think uh what do you think of? You stand alone on that front. I do stand I stand alone on many fronts. Uh this song is called In the Morning Light.

Uh and it's an I it struck me as an odd choice for you, but uh but I don't that's because I don't know the story, and that's what makes this show great. So the story of this, this is a probably one of the most peculiar things that has ever happened to me. Um I was living in my uh up I first moved into my graduate school apartment. I went to graduate school in uh Boston University and I lived in uh one of the many, many row houses on Commonwealth Avenue in Alston, Brighton, uh the 1300 block, if you know the area. And one of the wonderful things about the place was, you know, it had a you know uh all the normal features of uh dingy college apartment, but it had a front room that had you know two or three windows facing the street.

And it was noisy as as all could be, but uh I didn't put much in that room. I put the carpet, I put in um uh a couple of meditation things, and I put in a uh just uh as students do, an inexpensive uh futon. And I laid down one afternoon and I had the most peculiar experience. It was the one and only time where I feel like I've had an actual out-of-body experience where I was laying down is I think it was early afternoon or maybe late morning, and I just felt like I wasn't in myself anymore. I was just and it was the most incredible feeling of being outside of all of the normal sensations.

You were just there, absent of any feeling, any concern, any emotion, anything at all. It's just a wonderfully warm feeling of just being outside yourself. And I had heard this song, you know, the notes, the progression of notes, um, while I while that was happening. Now, I can't say for sure whether or not that I'd heard it somewhere in the past in my brain was referencing it, but I did not own it at that point. I did not know who it was.

I didn't know what you know what music was. I heard the notes, I recognized them, and and they were uh you know part of that incredible feeling of a sense of peace. And it wasn't until probably two or three years later where I heard that in a uh a store of some kind, or one of those little you know, musical displays and a point of sale thing that you you see, you know, like press number 24 for this album. And um, I recognized it and I, you know, ran over and and and immediately, of course, you know, bought the entire uh album, and I had finally found what I had heard in that dream state. And um it it remains to say it, you know, that hearing those songs brings me back to that that feeling, that state that I was in.

I've never since experienced it again. Um in all the you know, the the many, many years that have passed since then. I've never had another experience like that. Uh I I have deja vu an awful lot, but never quite like as impactful as that. So uh you you bought that you bought that album.

Was that in an effort to get back to that state? No, I just want to know what the heck it was. I was wondering. Uh so here's my metaphysical question. Do you think you had heard that song sometime in the past and it got stuck in your head?

Or do you think you and Yanni both had access to the same higher plane? I'm gonna go with the former. I'm fairly certain I must have heard it, you know. It's one of those songs you hear that you realize this is probably elevator music somewhere. Well, maybe so.

But when that elevator opens up and Linda Evans comes waltzing out, you've taken the right elevator, my friend. The sad part is I don't actually know who Linda Evans is. Uh well, you need to do the Google. I I will I'll attempt to to locate the Google later. Or the YouTube uh to find some Linda Evans.

But uh uh and you'll maybe gain access to that higher power that that Yanni clearly has. Um I would have called that your guilty pleasure. But uh that's only because I think a lot of people have predispositions about Yanni, which you know may or may not be true. But uh but you know, let's just say that Yanni's music is not everyone's cup of tea, but for uh those whose tea cups it fills, it's wonderful. It is.

And I, of course, cast no aspersions on it. I uh used to be a consultant in uh in the radio business, and I worked for a lot of smooth jazz stations that played Yanni. And Kenny G. So I'm you know for those for those markets where those stations were installed, I am uh culpable. Um and I'm I've I've moved on.

That was not an out-of-body experience, but some kind of experience. But anyway, that was not your guilty pleasure. No, your guilty pleasure was a uh was a deep album cut, really, from Guns N' Roses. Yes. Uh it's not a Guns N' Roses song that most people would know, I don't think.

Uh I mean if you if you have if you have the album, obviously you know it, but it certainly wasn't a radio song. And that's Estranged. And even if you have the album, you probably don't know it because it's an 11 minute song, and you just skip past it. It's a very it's a very long song. Um and I I hadn't heard it in a very long time.

I I have the album somewhere on my uh petaflop terra nano drive of music. Um but I hadn't heard Estrange in a very long time, and just to reacquaint myself with it, I watched the YouTube video that you sent along. And I it's 10 minutes of I think Axl Rose Saving Dolphins. So I know this it's part of a trilogy of songs. It was Don't Cry, November Rain, and Strange, and it was basically about I if I remember correctly, it was about him falling in love with um you know the woman of his dreams, uh having a not work out and him killing her.

It was uh was the was the it was pace, I think it was based on a set of short stories by an author named Del James. And here's the reason why this is a guilty pleasure, because I didn't really want to like this song. Um and uh actually I I made a studious effort to not like it or uh anything else on their albums for a very long time. I didn't have much of a choice though, because my freshman year roommate in college was a an enormous Guns N' Roses fan in the sense that that was pretty much all he listened to 24 hours a day, seven days a week without headphones. Um and it's one of those situations where after you hear it long enough, you actually you despite yourself, you start to like it, even though you don't want to.

And uh and this song in particular, because when you think about you know the the rise and fall and the trajectory of Guns N' Roses, this was sort of the at the peak of absurdity when uh you know their concerts involved like 40 piece orchestras and you know whatever they didn't spend on hookers and coke, they spent on on production. Um and this is almost the you know the the height of of silliness, you know, with ridiculous special effects and things. And that said, though, this song stuck with me for years. You know, here I am 20 years later after after rooming with that guy, and it's still stuck in my head. And there's a very specific part in the middle of it.

Uh there's an instrumental part where it's just piano and and guitar that I think is probably the the most worthwhile part of it. But like I said, for years I did not want to like this song. I still don't like that I like it. And uh and thus it you know, it doesn't make its way onto my playlists very often at all. But when it comes to the things that you don't want to like but you do, this is by far the top of the list.

There are scores and scores of reviews of that album that all contain the phrase, I didn't want to like this but I think it's about 70% of the reviews on Metacritic contain that phrase for that album. I didn't want to like this butt. Yeah, the video I mean, talk about excess, uh, the video for that song. And and please, uh I I've put it on the Friday5.com website. But uh if you haven't seen the video for a strange, there's you know, there's a uh 747 that contains dolphins in the hold somehow, like Star Trek 4.

Uh there's uh yeah, it's it's way over the top. And it ends, I think, with Axel singing to a dolphin and vice versa. Uh and it's magnificent. Yes, yes, it is. In uh in the excess of the the late 80s and 90s when uh when when you know money was not an obstacle for these folks and and neither was sensible budgeting.

I'll tell you what I think when I watch that video. I think it wasn't just that Axel had saved those dolphins, but maybe those dolphins saved Axel too. Clearly not. Uh I think his his plastic surgeon would disagree. I you know, but you look at the folks who are contemporary to that period and and you know, the folks who made it through, like Steven Tyler, you know, who looks wonderful as a seven-year-old woman, um, have uh have definitely you know uh fared better.

Yeah, yeah, I've absolutely fared better. But but as a as a monument to excess, yes, that song's, you know, is is almost peerless. Uh it really is. I mean, even even the length of the song, right? That's a four-minute song that Axel Rose just said, screw you.

You're gonna listen to it for 11 minutes. And you're gonna like it. And here's a dolphin. Uh so I I take it that one is not in your your morning pre speech ritual. No, no, it really isn't.

It's in the I went to college for that. It's one of those lessons you look back and go, I really didn't need to spend what I spent on college just to have that be part of the fabric of of my college experience. Yeah, well, we've all yeah, we've all had those college roommate experiences. My college roommate uh was a massive prince fan. Uh and had every conceivable released and unreleased prints uh record, ca single uh that you can we had we had ka singles back in in those days, kids.

That was a that was a wonderful use of plastic. Uh so I I had this sort of prince indoctrination when I was in college. Um, which I'm gonna say I fared a little better than you, Chris Penn. Yeah, I I think that's fair to say. Well, you've been an absolutely wonderful guest, Chris.

We've learned an awful lot about you, a very uh revealing glimpse in to someone I'm uh I'm very proud to call a friend and is uh someone who I respect and look up to enormously. Well, thank you. And this uh believe it or not, this interview did not change that. That that that is a a tribute to your skill. No, I just uh I at the start of this interview I listened to your list of music and I purged all my feelings.

Ah, excellent. Good. So we've made it through. Uh but this has been episode 11 of the Friday 5 with Chris Penn. Uh most of these songs are going to be available on a Spotify playlist at uh the Friday5.com.

I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to source Arthas My Son from World of Warcraft, but I'm really gonna try. But uh the the YouTube for it is on the site now. Yes. And I encourage you to actually watch them all. There's uh there's one last thing I want to add to this, Tom, if we have a moment or two.

Yeah, the the mic is yours, my friend. All these fit in a framework, which is not immediately obvious unless you know the particular Buddhist tradition that I practice. Each of there there's sort of five archetype elements. They're not, you know, it's not like Greek alchemy where they actually believe there were only four elements, but it's an archetype of of earth, water, fire, wind, and formless, formless of void. And each of these songs, in the order we present to them, fit each of those character categories.

So when you need to feel a certain way about being absolute or resolute, the Imperial March fits in there. When you need to be, you know, uh cool and calm and collected and free of distraction and emotion. The you know, the World of Warcraft song is that that's the sort of the water archetype. Um, when you need to find that, you know, that sense of connection and passion and energy, that's where the MM song fits in. Um when you're trying to find you know that sense of benevolence of that connection to the human race, of being something being bigger than yourself.

That's why Piano Man is there for me in that that wind spot. And then, you know, that out-of-body experience where um where you know nothing nothing was there, but yet everything was there is sort of that that void experience that encompasses everything. And that's so this list isn't just five songs, it's also a framework that is my personal reference point for when I'm dealing with the you know uh the opposite factors that where these elements would be appropriate. These are the the tools that I use to kind of reset my brain and get me to where I'm supposed to be. Um and I would encourage you know the listeners to do the same for themselves, not with these songs, with your own songs, with your own experiences, look for a musical piece that that gives you that that solidity, that you know, uh absoluteness, or that coolness and calmness, or that warmth and connection, or that that need for benevolence and and doing something greater than yourself, because those we we live in a time where distraction is very, very prevalent.

We live in a time where there's enormous you know, psychological and psychic violence that we're inflicting on each other and on ourselves. And if it's something like you know, the the power of music and the and the story, and and that's why and the reasons why I love the show so much is because it does highlight you know the how music plays a role in our lives. If you can find those things for yourself, um you you might find you know life a little bit easier or at least feel a little better equipped to deal with it. And at the center of those five unifying archetypes lies Axl Rose. And dolphins.

Well, you are you sound like a very balanced insane human to me, Chris Penn. Uh, and I'm and I'm better for knowing you. So we're gonna close the show on that note. Remember, the playlist will be available at thefriday5.com. If you have Spotify, if you don't have Spotify, you will get dead air and we'll find no joy.

So get the Spotify. I'm Tom Webster, and this has been the Friday 5. Cheers.