So What? Do I need a business coach?

Well, hey everyone. Happy Thursday. Welcome to So What the Marketing Analytics and Insights Live Show. I am joined by John Wall and a very special guest who is replacing Chris Penn permanently. Permanently.

Oh just kidding. Welcome back, Ginny. Ah, thanks. I do like my semi-permanent role here. We're excited to have and we felt like so.

Chris is traveling this week. Chris, I think is somewhere over the Atlantic right now. Complaining about British Airways. Right. We're just talking about rich people problems, Chris is like, these seats are tiny, the stuff.

These seats, this this is like US airlines. These seats suck. I was like, oh boy. Whereas John and I are like, yes, tell us about the tiny seats. In business class.

Well, so Chris isn't here. He's traveling. So Ginny has offered to sit in. And it's uh fortuitous that you were able to join us this week, Ginny, because we're talking about coaching. And we're talking about business coaching specifically, but I think that there's definitely some parallels with other kinds of coaching that we can draw.

Um, so let's just go ahead and get into it. So we wanted to talk about do I need a business coach? And we have ways that we want to evaluate it, but before we get into that, um, since you yourself are a coach, Ginny, do you want to just sort of give a rundown of like what the heck it is? I think there's a big misunderstanding of what business coaching really means. Well, there are certain people who will go unnamed and Ken Jacobs who uh like to differentiate coach versus consultant versus advisor.

Um, a coach, if we're thinking about it technically, is certified. So they go through a big certification um process. They they have their there is a process that they use, um, and they are really specific about how they help you. They ask they they I would sort of re talk to them or relate them to sort of a therapist. They ask you lots of questions, they help you get to the answer yourself.

Um a consultant or an advisor is more what I do. I'm not certified, but I have experience, right? So I have experience growing an agency, I have an experience growing an e-commerce business. Um, and then of course I have client experience. So I am able to work with other agency owners to help them understand things that they might be missing.

Uh I don't always act like a therapist. I sometimes give advice because I'm like, all right, let's stop complaining about this and actually do something. Um I also don't have the patience that a therapist has or a business coach has. And I think you learn some of that when you go through the certification. So I would say that they're two different things.

Um, a business coach is more focused on helping you come to the answers yourself, and they are certified. And then it, you know, a a business advisor or consultant is somebody who has the experience that you're looking for and can help you sort of move the roadblocks that are in your way. Um, you know, it's interesting because I didn't I personally didn't realize that, you know, when people are looking for a coach, this is someone who should probably be certified as a coach. And I think that that means that that there's a lot of bad business coaches out there. Um have you ever used a business coach, John?

You're pretty certifiable. Yeah, not you know, I've never been to a licensed professional for counseling on any business stuff. But I did early in my career, I had career counseling. You know, I went to a uh basically a coach that helped me with the job hunt process and taught me a lot of things that were worthwhile about how you find positions, you know, and that was worth doing. I mean, this was like 20 years ago, and I still paid like four grand, you know, to to work with this guy for like wow.

Yeah, and it was huge. But this was the time too where you know the internet hadn't completely dominated and torn the space apart. Like there were still, you know, networks were still a thing, and um, and yeah, the huge learning of that was you have to find the hidden network, you know, it's not enough to just be applying for things. The people that get the great jobs know who to talk to and where to go. And so, and I see that theme over and over again of gatekeepers, you know, coaches and um counselors and advisors as gatekeepers to get you into other things that you normally couldn't get into by yourself.

Um there's a best-selling author that we've done work with, and I've done a lot of stuff with, who has a coach who is his public speaking coach, and he's basically made him the public speaker. I mean, he came to with the map of like, okay, here's you know, you need to have a book uh on this kind of stuff, you need to be doing this on this day, and then we're gonna introduce you to this network here and get you into to be speaking. And that kind of coaching mentoring is huge. I mean, it's made his whole career. And the thing with that, that's again going back to the hidden network thing is that guy can only create, you know, one person in a niche.

And so, you know, he's not taking any referrals, like just because you know that's out there and you want that, you can't even get it. You know, they're like we're not gonna refer anybody to him because you know, he's already got somebody doing that thing in that space. So interesting. And he can also charge whatever he wants. So that's a good way to specialize, right?

Yeah, especially because once he gets to the point where if he gets the book to hit and it's recurring revenue, he's literally just sitting there collecting paychecks every year. You know, it's it's insane. And he has probably a dozen verticals that he's done at its house. Great business model. Um so I want to get into how to evaluate, you know, if you need a coach and what you get out of it.

But before we do, I asked this question last week in our uh free Slack group analytics for Marketers about their feelings on a business coach, and it was interesting. Um, and a little bit unsurprising. We have a lot of strong personalities, but a lot of people said, I'm too stubborn to work with a coach, or I don't need a coach, or I couldn't take advice from someone else. So I guess so, Ginny. I know that you run up against a lot of obstacles in your career.

How what kind of a response do you have when someone says uh, you know, I'm too stubborn to work with an advisor or a coach, or I don't think I need one. Well, first of all, they're not a good fit for me. We'll start there. But also Michael Jordan is arguably one of the best basketball players of all time. LeBron James is probably up there as well.

They have coaches, they did not get there by themselves. You cannot get where you want to go by yourself. If you want to stay where you are and not have a coach, so be it. But like the best professionals, the the people who are elite in their fields, all have coaches, every one of them, not just athletes, business leaders, therapists, scientists, engineers, they all have coaches, all of them. Every single one of them.

I think there's a misunderstanding that if you hire an advisor or a coach that you don't know what you're doing, and I don't think that that's the case at all. Um, I don't believe that any one person can see 360 all the time, can know everything going on all the time. And it's not, and it's not a knock at your intelligence, it's not a knock at your skill set to have that person on your team to have that person working with you. It's really actually a sign of high emotional intelligence that you recognize you can't be everywhere at once. Yeah, how does that work though?

How have you guys seen that in practice then? Because I see this, there's the two things, right? There's conscious, conscious incompetent, where everybody's like, Yeah, you know, this CEO can't do public speaking, like we need to get him a coach to get him straight. But then there's unconscious incompetent where you know, maybe nobody knows that this person's a bad negotiator and they need help. I mean, is it basically does somebody just have to have the guts and love them enough to just say you need some help with this?

Like, you need to go take care of this, or you know, is there any other way that that comes around? Yeah, I mean, probably it probably on the unconscious side. I would imagine, yes, in most cases, you have to have somebody either on your team or a family member or close friend who says, Hey, it might be worth it to check out an advisor or a coach on to help you with this. Like a really good example is when I started my business, you know, I came from the big global PR firm world, and so I thought that that's how I had to run my business with lots of process and lots of procedure and memos from the CEO and sort of that distant relationship with the CEO with the with the team. And because of that, I wasn't a great leader.

And I had the our churn was really high when I first started the business, and I couldn't figure out why. And I remember sitting with a friend, and he said, Maybe you should talk to a leadership coach. And what I learned from the leadership coach was astonishing. Like I was terrible. I thought I was good.

I was not good at all. It was a terrible leader. Um, and because of that, I also was a terrible communicator. I mean, this is something that I do for a living is communications, but because I wasn't able to translate my communications expertise to leadership, I was it was I it was bad. And he was really good.

He was very frustrating, but he was really good in for in the perspective of me saying, Okay, this is my challenge, and he'd go, So what do you think you should do? And I'd be like, Well, that's why I'm asking you. I hate that. But that's what they're that's what coaches do, right? They have to help you get to the answer yourself.

Because if they give you the answer, and I'm guilty of this, like, I'll give the answer, and my clients will say, eh, I'm not gonna do that. So you sort of have to get them to the answer themselves so that they a think it's their own idea, and B, are ready to invest in that idea in in and in that change. Yeah, I find nothing more frustrating than oh, it's super frustrating. I mean, so I have a coach and an advisor, and she frustrates the hell out of me because she says that to me all the time, Ginny Dietrich. Uh, and so for those of you who don't know, Ginny is one of uh the advisors at Trust Insights and someone who you know I turn to with a lot of questions because when we started Trust Insights, I had zero experience running a company.

I've run teams, I've built teams, and so I knew that I had a lot of these skill sets, but I hadn't quite figured out how to translate that into something bigger. And you know, Ginny, you were able to and still do guide us because a lot of times our ideas are too big, or you know, they're sort of, you know, trust insights is moving down this road, and I'm like over here in the woods, like skipping through the trees. And I'm like, I think we should do this thing over here. And you're like, cool. So nobody's driving the car, you gotta get back in the car.

And I'm like, well, why do I do that? And you'll say, Well, why do you think you should do that? I mean, is that pretty accurate? That is pretty accurate. But we recognized very quickly that, you know, we all collectively had a lot of experience, but not enough of the right experience, which is why we thought it made sense to bring in someone who had the right experience.

And it's been incredibly invaluable for us and for me to have the right kind of advisor. We actually, this is we we interviewed, I interviewed a lot of different advisors before Jeannie and I had a chance to meet. And for it wasn't until Ginny and I met that I was like, I don't need advisor. I don't need these people. I don't want to talk to these people.

Nope, nope, nope, nope. And then Ginny and I met, and I'm like, yep, okay, that person can help us. And it really is. It's about chemistry, it's about the right things. All of those, and all of those are important.

And so when we think about evaluating, do I need a business coach? I always love an excuse to bring out the 5B framework. So the five Ps are purpose, people, process, platform, and performance. We also love alliteration because we're all marketers. Very nice.

I'm teaching Addie that right now, alliteration. Like I'll have her say, okay, today is Thursday. So what should we say? And she'll be like, it's a terrific trying Thursday. Like she'll come up with three T's and then she'll go, literacy!

And I'm like, alliteration. Alliteration. Literacy. So close. Well, and I needed to make sure that the alliteration wasn't something that like would start to be like a stutter or that could be lispy either.

So with this one, you get to like spit on people a little bit. Purpose people. Yeah, you do. You're right. We're having a good time.

All right. So we start with the purpose. So, you know, I'm sure, and you both work in enterprise sized companies. How often does someone say, you know what? Let's just hire an advisor.

Let's just hire a coach without any real forethought into what this person is going to do or how you're going to measure success. I almost never in like corporate Fortune 500, you know, because that's the domain of, you know, hey, we're upper level managers who managing mid-level managers. Like we will never admit weakness on anything because someone will take our office tomorrow. So you you've got to find the there's two areas. One is if you know you actually are in a normal culture, more like a mid-sized organization where people realize you need to have ongoing education and you need some help.

Or um, and one thing that we see all the time is there's some weird either new technology or new market or something that's just the company doesn't have any experience in and they know that, you know. So like with AI and marketing, you're like, yes, we need to go find somebody to come in here and talk to us about this because nobody in-house has this experience because it's either brand new or it's you know some crazy thing that you need experience that you just can't get normally. Um but yeah, that's that's kind of the angle for it. It's um it's a tough sell, and it's another thing that's always network bound too. You know, people show up with RD coaches that they've used in the past or they like.

It's not a matter of like, hey, we've got a problem, let's go just randomly send out an RFP for five coaches. Like, that's just a yeah yeah yeah asking for a circus. Yeah. I agree with you, John. And one of the things that I see on from my side is huge companies will hire me specifically to come in and teach their their teams, their comms teams something specific like the peso model.

But it's a one-time thing, right? It's not there's not the coaching. It's just the we need this quick like very macro level education on what this is and then we'll take it in internally and we'll run with it. So it's usually a one or two day workshop kind of thing versus an annual I'm meeting with you every week trying to help you implement this internally. I have guys how many times have you been horrified by that have you gone in and like done peso training and then come back two years later and like there's all these weird peso offshoots that they don't they don't normally do it.

Like they'll take one or two things because they don't it at a macro level it's really hard to say oh great great yes we can implement that and you know have to deal with all the silos and all the stuff right internally so usually they do one or two things and you'll see them do that really well and they call it the peso model but it's not yeah animateurs it's hard like I understand I've you know I've spent the last three years working inside organizations I it's hard I get it. Well so on the um on the vein of you know trying to figure out why you would want to bring in an advisor you know we start with the first P which is purpose and with that you create a user story and this user story deconstructed tells you everything you need to know about the other four Ps. And so you know we can use the peso model as an example. So as a comms director, I want to hire Jenny so that I can teach my team, you know, the proper way to execute peso. And so as you start to go through the user story, you have the persona, the want to, and the so that the persona is the people that you need from the five Ps.

Uh, the want to is the process and the platform, and the so that is the performance measure. And I think this is where a lot of people get hiring a coach and advisor wrong is there's no clear cut outcome, there's no deliverable, there's nothing to measure. They're just like, okay, so our CEO, he's failing, let's get him an executive coach. And then how do you know he's no longer failing? What are those tactical measurable points?

What are those milestones? And I think that a lot of those conversations just don't happen. Has that been your experience, Ginny? Yeah, I think it depends. Um, for sure.

It depends on to your point earlier, whether or not they're willing to work with somebody, right? But you know, I I've been doing a lot of work in the last probably 12 to 15 months on um communication skills for executives because you know, we were told don't talk about values, don't talk about your mission, don't talk about anything that's going to ostracize customers. And most executives, CEOs have been told that their entire careers, and then the last three years have turned that on their heads, right? Where they've now we're saying you should absolutely stand up for gun safety and you should stand up for social justice, and you should like you should be doing these things. And these executives are going, but wait, I've been told for 50 years I'm not supposed to do that, and now you're telling me I should.

I don't know how to do that. Um, and and so some try on their own and fail, and then that's the reason for them to bring in a communications expert, right? So that's where we see a lot of it is they've tried it and they have failed miserably, and their internal teams are like, Yeah, let's not do that again. Let's find somebody who can help you mess with messaging and presentation and the right words to use. So with those engagements, as you are, you know, advising executives through communication, do you set up a deliverable schedule, some milestones, like we're gonna meet this often, or you know, this is how many drafts we want to go through and sort of really sort of put those guardrails and set those expectations?

Yeah, it certainly depends on the situation, but usually it's at least you meet at least twice a month and there's very specific goals, right? Where we're we're trying to help you help you be ready for the next thing. So this is a terrible example, just in terms of society in general, but the Nashville shooting um just a couple of days ago, right? The there's there was an article in CNN this morning that talked about how corporate America has gone silent on gun safety, and that's not okay. So you you in that instance, we would help an exec be prepared for the next time this happens so that they're not silent, so that they are doing the right things and they know exactly what to say.

So we can't really control when that's going to happen, but we can control them being ready, them being ready to be able to talk about this, these are our values and this is our stance, and this is how this is what we're doing to help make change instead of sending thoughts and prayers. Yeah, how do you slice that? How do you you know get them to um take the stand that they want to take, but at the same time kind of keep that aligned with their business? I mean, or is that the majority of what you're doing? You're trying to figure out the alignment between what they're talking about and how it goes to the world.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So things like gun safety is a really great example of that. Like if it we have one client who has brick and mortar locations in communities that are plagued with gun violence.

So one of the things that we've recommended is that they start investing in the communities to help with education and you know, after school activities and things like that to kick get kids off of the streets. And that's completely aligned because they don't want guns coming into their location, and they're in these communities that are plagued by gun violence. So if they're investing time and money into those communities, they can actually make a real difference. So those are the kinds of things that we do is help them align their stance, their values with what the business is doing. So I can see for someone who's not sure how that you know thinking came about, using the five Ps in a user story could help start to bring out those details.

And so, you know, in that instance, you have the, you know, as the you know, business owner, I want to ensure that the guns won't come into my brick and mortar so that we can ensure the safety of our customers. And so you're like, okay, I can start to deconstruct this, and so I know what my purpose is, I know why I want to do this. And then you can say, all right, how do I start to prevent some of these things from happening? That becomes your people in your process. And then with the platform, that might be how do I get the message out, or how do I demonstrate that these things are happening?

And then your overall performance is that the thing that you don't want to happen doesn't happen. And I think it's a really just succinct way to think about why am I bringing in an advisor or why am I, you know, looking to do some executive, you know, coaching or communications coaching. There's got to be really tactical reasons why you want these things to happen because it's not an inexpensive endeavor either. Right, right. Um, you know if you're asking someone to come in and basically tell you how to do something or teach you to do something you have to imagine especially as the stakes get higher when you have human lives at risk or you know whatever the situation it's gonna be really expensive yeah it's not inexpensive um I have a client one of my clients um on a much smaller scale her challenge is to you know effectively communicate um but she's not someone who has a lot of authority but she's asked to give a lot of really hard communications across multiple teams and her enterprise sized company tends to be pretty siloed so a lot of times people don't know who she is or why she's asking certain things and that's something I've been uh sort of coaching her through as well and a lot of times her default stance is well can you just write it for me and then I'll just change the names and send it and you know for the sake of time sometimes we do that but my hope is that she's learning some of the communication but as we're talking I'm realizing that's exactly the wrong approach because she's not then learning it for herself she's relying on a crutch right of someone else to do it.

So in terms of advising and coaching like where do you draw the line of let me just do it for you it's just faster. I never do that ever. I and like I said like I said earlier I might say to you this is the this is the recommendation I make and I may give you like the path to go down but I never ever do the work. A, because usually they're not, I'm not paid to do that. But also you're never gonna learn right how to do it if if I'm doing it for you.

Yeah, well, and that's an interesting setup too that we're talking about too because like in one situation you're coming in and you're just saying, hey, I am the coach, and so this is how that works and and the way it goes. But then there's this other thing we see all the time where you come in as the service provider, you know, some kind of vendor, but end up coaching your your customers because you have whether it's more knowledge or whatever, but you start to you know build that coaching relationship. I get how does that continue to go? I mean, you can never make it a formal coaching thing because you can't get away from the actual client work that needs to be done. Um, or or is there some other way to spin that?

Yeah, I think it I mean it depends, of course. Um, but we have a client relationship right now where we were brought in to do the work, and and as the relationship has evolved, we've started to we've helped them build their team. So it started with one person on the comms team, and now we're up to five. Um, and so we've started to take a step back in terms of actually doing the work, but the the team that they've hired is pretty young and inexperienced. So we continue to provide input and like I today I I got an I got an article that one of them had written um wanting feedback, and I was like, okay, let's so I have to actually instead of rewriting it or you know providing track changes, what I'm doing is taking it and saying, okay, I want you to think about it strategically like this and outline it this way so that they're still doing the work.

I'm just reframing, helping them refrain in in their minds how it's the strategic direction of it. That's really the ideal way to work. Um, what I run up against with some of my clients is are those time constraints or the sense of urgency or the crisis, and you know, how do you best balance? And I I'm gonna think about how to answer this question as well. But how do you best balance the we need to take the time and have the patience for you to learn it and teach it versus things just need to get done yesterday?

I think it depends on the relationship. I mean, if you're hired, like to John's point, if you're hired as a service provider, then just do the work. Um, but if you're hired to like this one client specifically, we've been our our relationship has evolved into we are coaching the team, we're not doing the work. So while it would be much easier for Travis on my team and I to just rewrite it, like a lot easier and a lot less time, and it would be good. And like, but that's not that's not what we're doing.

That's not what the relationship is right now. So yeah, if you're the service provider and you're part of the team and the arms and legs, then get it done. But if you're there to coach and train and provide professional development, you have to take the time. There's no substitute for the discussion. You know, and I can pick on him a little bit because he's not here, but that's one of the things that Chris uh struggles with, especially when we ran the team at our old agency.

Was uh before he brought me in, he acknowledges he's the first to admit he doesn't have the patience to stop and teach someone. For him, it's just let me just do it, it's faster. And then the challenge is that the team is never learning. Um, in the sense of the agency, the issue that we would run into is that as we're billing the clients hourly, they also didn't want to pay for our team to be learning how to do the thing. And so it becomes a sticking point.

Um, as I feel like now we're talking about professional development, but it's all related, it becomes a sticking point of when do you find the time? When do you make the time? If people are just running a million miles a minute trying to charge hourly, they need to learn the thing, but they don't have time to learn the thing, and so people get stuck in this place. Do you ever recommend you know someone look outside of their job to find a coach? Like do it on their own time so that they can learn the thing.

It's yeah, I mean, I think in that instance, it's probably more valuable to do online courses or or you know, go back to school or whatever it happens to be because that's probably more affordable and something that you can do on your own time. If you're if if your organization doesn't provide the professional development development you need to learn new skill sets or whatever happens to be, then you're in the wrong place. Um you can't they uh every organization should never expect your team, anyone on their team to do professional development development on their own time in order to do their jobs. I don't think I agree with that. Um so as we're starting to wind down the conversation, the last side of do I need a business coach that I want to cover is red flags to look for.

And so we've all had we've all been swindled at one point or another by people who've told us that they know something and don't, but sometimes you don't know that the person you're talking to doesn't really know what they're talking to until you sort of get into it. You know, they put on a good show, they you know have all the right credentials. But what are some of in your experience, both John and Jenny, the red flags to look for when going down this road of maybe hiring an advisor or a coach or someone uh of that? John I thought you were gonna have a feeling. Tell us how this is gone.

I'm just you know, with so the weirdest thing is with so many marketing programs, you know, and uh I finally have gotten to the core of some of that stuff, is if you don't have the right alignment of your company's purpose and mission, then vendors are always gonna struggle, whether it's a coach or somebody writing copy or doing stuff for you. If you um, you know, I just have to be part of your model that, like, hey, we're gonna bring on three people, and probably two are not gonna be able to do this, and one will, you know, you just have to throw money around and experiment. And I guess that's where having a network becomes incredibly valuable, you know. That's right. People that have had track record of success and are willing to introduce you, which and is also a huge problem in marketing.

You know, it's one thing for career stuff. Everybody will share a great career coach, but if you're running LinkedIn ads and you've got somebody, you're like, No, I'm not, I'm not uh you I'm not telling you who I'm working with. Right, yeah, you've got your computer, right? You're just like, yeah, no, you should go look on Fiverr for that. Definitely.

Yeah, you know, you you're not gonna let him go. So um yeah, I've I've had plenty of uh fail. I think on the PR com side, I had pitching um just to guest on other podcasts. I've done that with a number of companies, and I've had some that it was basically fleshing the money down the toilet. You know, they totally got nothing.

The worst is when you get other shows coming back complaining that saying, hey, this person pitched me and they were a jerk. Like, what the hell is it? You know, I think I sent you one of those. Did you really? I think I did several years ago where I was like, uh, John.

This person is not accurately reflecting your brand. I mean, I'd really rather just hear from you. Which I know doesn't help, but no, but that that's the way uh yeah, that stuff goes. It's yeah, uh, you just have to take the beatings with this, you know. I I haven't found any other way around that.

Yeah, I I agree. Um, I also you said something really important, John, which is the networking piece of it, and it's asking, you know. Um in my personal life, where I'm going through a process right now where I'm finding I'm I'm working to find professionals for certain things. And in many cases, I just don't know, right? So I don't know what questions to ask, I don't know what to expect.

I don't there's a lot I don't know. So I'm relying on my network to say, we've worked with so and so and so and so, so give them a call. And then what I'm doing is I'm paying really close attention to how they're spending time with me when when we're having the conversation. First of all, it's chemistry for sure. Like, do I like them?

Because these are people that are gonna be in my home. So I I have to like them. Second of all, is it are they educating me or are they condescending and talking down to me? And in many cases, uh if I say, you know, I'm a novice in some of this stuff, so I'll say, Well, tell me about this. And if they are really condescending, then I'm like, no.

Um, so it's that kind of stuff that I'm paying attention to. But I think John, you're right, it's really about who does your network recommend. And then, you know, you have to assume that if like Katie or John, if I said to you, hey, I'm looking for a web designer and you referred two to me, I would assume that both of them are good and that you have a good experience working with them, right? So then I can pay attention to, do we have any chemistry? Is this somebody I want to show up to a weekly call with?

Are they gonna meet their deadlines? That kind of stuff. Yeah, I think that that's incredibly important. I always ask my network first for anything. Um, you know, before it's so hard to just, you know, go go out cold and try to find someone, you just never know what you're gonna get.

And so, you know, finding communities to be a part of, finding, you know, groups, local, you know, look at your friends, look at your family. A great community is uh analytics for marketers. That's our free Slack group. You can find it at TrustInsights.ai slash analytics for marketers. Again, we found that quite we asked the question last week, and people are constantly asking for referrals for you know, social media people, for experts in LinkedIn ads, um, for a variety of things.

And it's a group of trusted people now that we built that, you know, if someone gives a recommendation, they know that it's that person's uh reputation, but also their own personal reputation to say, well, you referred this person to me, and they, you know, they shut the bed. And that happens too sometimes. It does. Unfortunately. Uh so with that, you know, sort of the big takeaways for do I need a business coach is if you're not sure, use the five P structure to start to bring to start to suss out whether or not you think you might need one, why you need one.

Uh, a really simple way to start that is with a user story. So as a you know, executive, I need an advisor so that I can run my business better. Okay, that's a great place to start. Can you drill it down to something a little bit more concrete? Because the thing that people often forget is there should be some kind of deliverable, something measurable.

You know, it's not just do I run my business better, it's can I increase my revenue by 10%? Can I bring in five more clients this year? Something very, you know, concrete that you can say, yes, check the box. I did that. Um, any other final thoughts, John or Jenny.

If you are not sure, you definitely do. And stop being stubborn because everybody can use a coach. Everyone can use a coach. It's true. All right.

Well, thanks everyone, and hopefully I do not screw up this closing. Thanks for watching today. Be sure to subscribe to our show wherever you're watching it. For more resources and to learn more, check out the Trust Insights Podcast at Trustinsights.ai slash TI podcast. And a weekly email newsletter at TrustInsights.ai slash newsletter.

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