Do Something With Your Marketing: Special Interview with Ian Altman

In this special edition of Do Something With Your Marketing, I interview sales expert Ian Altman about the second edition of his book, Same Side Selling. Same Side Selling teaches a different mindset for selling complex transactions: instead of thinking of the buyer as someone you have to win over, or someone you have to beat into submission, you think of the buyer as someone with a puzzle you both want to solve. You're literally on the same side, trying to create maximum value for everyone.

Watch this 32-minute interview where I ask Ian what's new in his book since the last edition, what new tools are available to help marketers and sales professionals, how same side selling impacts marketers, and much more. I learned a ton, including the four questions everyone should be asking in every sales meeting and the right way to ask them.

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Machine-Generated Transcript

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for watching the video.

Christopher Penn
Alright, today we are talking with Ian Altman, the co author of same side selling second edition, which is a bit of a mouthful to go through. Same side selling has been a best seller for about five years now in terms of helping sales people to not think of their, their prospects as as the enemy for whom they must beat into submission. And what is, first of all, what's this? What's the why a second edition if the the concept is timeless, but I personally think it is,

Ian Altman
Well, you know what, it is timeless? There's a few things that we did. One is that there's some core principles that I've been teaching for the last five years that just weren't in the book. So they came up as we were teaching people things afterwards, where they would say, Well, so, man, I'm still struggling with these concepts, how do I actually apply it. And so there's a concept that that we have in the book now called the same side quadrants, for example, which is

For those people have ever seen me speak on stage, I've probably share the same side quadrants 500 times. And it's not in the book or it wasn't in the book. And now it's in the second edition. And there are things that when we wrote them in the first edition, we thought, Man, this is absolutely critical. This has to be in the book. And then upon further review, we realized not so necessary. It's kind of just extra fluff. So we took those things out, we cleaned up some stuff, we added a bunch of digital case studies. So So now anybody gets a book, they have access to a site where it's constantly growing different case studies. And so the idea is to make it so that it's much more practical. And then people thought it was pretty practical before but it just makes it that much more practical for people to actually be able to implement it and get the results that other people have seen. Gotcha. Now for the folks who have not read it. It is a about 220 page book nine chapters. You want to briefly walk through what is same size selling already.

Christopher Penn
is somewhat intuitive from the name, but let's talk about about the concept.

Ian Altman
Sure. So so the almost every book that's ever been written about sales, either uses a game metaphor, or a battle metaphor. So when the game metaphor, there's a winner and a loser in the battle metaphor, the loser actually dies. And then and then we wonder why we have this adversarial tension between buyer and seller. What a shocker. So the metaphor that we introduced and same side selling is more of a puzzle metaphor. So my co author jack quarrels, you can probably guess from Jack's last name quarrels. jack is a guy has been two decades and purchasing and procurement. And, and so the idea is that for what we bake into every single chapter, every page is the buyer and the seller's perspective. And with this puzzle metaphor, the idea is, look, we want to collaborate together, I'm gonna bring my puzzle pieces you bring yours, we're going to sit on the same side of the table. And they're puzzle pieces on the table and see whether or not we have a fit. Do these pieces fit together? And if so, is it for the right picture that we're going to end up with some It looks great, because if not, that client will become the bane of our existence, and we get sucked into the vortex of evil.

Christopher Penn
It is true. I mean, think about you have everything from target marketing, to even the the inaptly described email blast,

Ian Altman
email blast, and then you get people thinking about it. Then we introduce marketing, like guerrilla marketing. I mean, it's it's all these battle and war metaphors. And then we then we wonder why clients are a little bit resistant and not as trusting as we might like them to be.

Christopher Penn
So with same side selling with this, this concept in the light in the last five years, have you run into those people who have said, Well, no, my organization special? We're a little snowflake, this won't work for us. Have you run into those? And then on further examination has, have there been any cases where we're Nope, the the average selling method is the way they have to go.

Ian Altman
You know what, I guess if somebody is a tort lawyer, I mean, the reality is, there are some businesses like for example, in the legal profession, not as a seller, but if you're a litigator, it's very adversarial and nature. Oftentimes, each side is trying to take a position that is totally unrealistic and unreasonable to the other side. There are businesses like if people are buying and selling commercial property, you might not need to have a great relationship with that person after the transactions done. The only place where same side selling fits is if it's actually important that everyone gets along after the sale. So I would say that with the exception of like, for example, if you are somebody, you probably don't need to be on the same side, if you're a paid assassin, because the other person probably doesn't matter how much they're on the same side with you. So I guess that would be the excuse is paid assassins, not so much the book is not for them. And really, it's catered much more to the, to the b2b side of the world, because that's our background. And yet, we get emails and success stories from people all the time who say no, no, this applies in the consumer side, too. And my favorite is when I get an email from somebody who says, I'm just so you know, I mean, I'm using some of these concepts and dating and it's working great.

Christopher Penn
Well, you know, that's something that I don't apply a whole lot of my own marketing technology to. So I assume that will just let those folks be happy.

You mentioned on the b2b side. So I assume that means that there's a lot of folks who for whom that is more complex sale, where there's many steps to negotiation things? Are you seeing people use the concepts of same side selling for things, they're very transactional sales, e commerce, sales, things like that, where there's not a sales person talking, but there's a checkout gateway, you know, by the SAS software? How are you seeing same size selling applied to that?

Ian Altman
Well, so we're, we're, it ties into that is more on the marketing side. So if you think about it, once I get to that transactional type sale, then what happens is, now I'm relying on the customer going through that journey, in many cases on their own. And so what I have to do is I follow very similar principle. So one of the concepts we talked about, and same side selling is focusing on the problems you solve, rather than what it is that you do. So, to that extent, instead of having your website talk about, here's what we do, you would say, Well, people use this software, usually facing one of these two or three problems. That's why they come to us. So then we get we get them to say, okay, they saw that kind of problem, I have that problem. So then it makes sense. The next level is what we call disarming. So the idea is, I need to acknowledge that not everyone's a good fit for us. And so what that might sound like is, look, so just because you're having that problem doesn't necessarily mean that we can help you. So here are two or three conditions that we may not be the best fit for. And then it allows people to kind of say, okay, so they're not just assuming that everyone's a great fit, they're actually open to the fact that maybe they're not a great fit, which makes everything you say, way more credible, I mean, keep mine, one of the tenants behind same side selling is that your goal is not to sell to everybody, your goal is to sell to the people you can help the most, and actually deter the people who you can't help. And that's a hard thing for people to get their head around. Because a lot of people, they think all revenue is good revenue, and it just isn't. So

Christopher Penn
in chapter two, you talk a lot about being unique about developing that market differentiator and stuff. And one of the things that I know I certainly see in my LinkedIn inbox every single day are scads of equal of perfectly identical prospecting pitches and things. How, why is this the perfect selling stuck in in such a rope template? environment where everybody sounds the same? It's like, okay, you know, we are the better, faster, cheaper, slightly more advanced, you know, whatever the thing is,

Ian Altman
as our friend Jay Baer says, same is lame. And, you know, it's just if you sound like everyone else, it's awful. And how many times do you get a solicitation from somebody where it says, gee, Chris, I know that I help companies like, and then they give your company name exactly as it isn't LinkedIn. And we do this and this and this, and I know it will be perfect for you. When can we schedule a call, and you're thinking, What an idiot. And the problem is that they, here's what need to recognize one, that person wasn't born with that idea in their head, someone said to them, hey, here's a good idea, here's what you should do. So we got to find that person, take them out back and be them into the ground, okay, but we're probably not going to find that person. But what we need to appreciate is that, oftentimes, people are just doing what they've been taught to do and what they've been told to do. And so it's really not their fault. They just don't know a better way. And so a lot of what we talked about, and same side selling is how we take a more modern approach to sales marketing. So instead of reaching out to someone saying, Oh, I know I can help you, here's what we do, you would say, look here, the kind of problems that we solve. And I can't tell from looking at your website, Chris, whether or not you're facing one of these, if you know of one or two people who might be facing that, I'd be happy to talk to them to see if maybe we can help. Well, you might be inclined to actually listen to that and go, you know, what, I don't have that need. But you know, Tom does, or, you know, it just it opens up your mind to the fact that maybe this will work when you're when you're just constantly pushing forward for the sale, you're just repelling everybody away from you.

Christopher Penn
Talk a little about in, in the concepts of in narrowing your market and understanding who is or is not a good customer who is or is not a prospect and customer, how do you answer the executive, not the line salesperson who you know, is trying to do the best that they can do. But the C level executives, like you know, this is our revenue number for the quarter, you have to hit it, we don't care how you do it. But you got to make this number or you don't get your bonus, how do you reconcile the same side selling approach of not creating that average sales, like super thirsty sales guy with the executive says hit the numbers, or else I fire you.

Ian Altman
So So keep in mind, the organizations that implement same side selling. If you look at the case studies, it's people that grew from 17 million to over 100 million in three years. Now. The case study example there is a company called bright claim, bright claim grew from 14 million to 17 million in the prior three years. So they went 14 to 17, and three years, and they went 17, over 100 million in three years. So it's not that people aren't enthusiastic about growing, it's just, it's when you come to the realization that says, You know what, I waste a lot of resources chasing opportunities that we had no business ever working with. And so I profile companies in the book, who actually more than doubled their growth rate while pursuing 40%, fewer opportunities. So it sounds counterintuitive, that says, look, the key to you growing is not chasing as much garbage. But that's really what it comes down to is don't chase stuff, where you're not the best fit. Don't Don't chase stuff, where you can't have a profound impact for them. One of the questions we ask people is, so why would this client or prospect do business with you? And if you can't quickly come up with the answer, they're not going to figure it out on their own.

Christopher Penn
I used to work at an organization where marketing had to be generated leads of prospects really have to be technical. And the demands kept getting higher and higher and higher record, it went from 2000 to 3000. This was a SAS based company. And sales had a closing rate of 0.01%. Meaning that

Unknown Speaker
Oh, that's

Unknown Speaker
awesome.

Christopher Penn
Imagine how much time they're wasting? Well, that was the thing is and sales would complain that, you know, the leads are, you know, it's a classic like I can laugh great. Glen Ross, the leads are weak. And

but this was a company that sold email marketing, there were not that many qualified companies out there certainly not 3000 a quarter. So eventually, what ended up happening was getting anything and everything. And that created this adversarial relationship between sales and marketing. How do you how do you help both marketers and sales? People get on the same side internally in a company to help ownership? Yeah, you're going to get fewer leads. But theoretically, they should be higher quality? How do you help bridge that battle?

Ian Altman
You know, what I'm glad you asked, I was actually just working with a company. This week. It's about an $18 billion company. And so I was doing a keynote for their group and then some breakout sessions with the team. And the the marketing organization actually said, we're going to be there to make sure that our marketing messages align for what sales needs, which is very refreshing, because oftentimes, I'll go into an organization or work with marketing or sales, and then they're left to try and translate that to the other side of the organization, it usually doesn't happen. That the challenge is that we get lazy. And as someone with your background in terms of analytics, you'll appreciate this. People will focus on the simplest numbers to measure in terms of activity. And they don't look at anything from a qualitative standpoint. So what they do is they say, for example, as you said, in the in this other SAS company, well, we need three things thousand leads. Well, why do you need 3000 leads? Well, because our goal is to generate 30 new customers, and the way we do is with 3000 leads. Okay? What if there was a way to generate 50 new customers from 150 leads? Like, what if what if we could generate almost twice as much business, but by pursuing dramatically fewer opportunities, but being much more precise and intentional about what we go after? And that's part of what we try to teach in same side selling, which is, look, don't waste your time chasing rainbows. You know, oftentimes, you ask somebody in sales or marketing, well, who's your ideal client? And they usually give an answer sound something like, well, anybody who needs x is usually the answer. Anybody who needs this. So they might say, well, so anybody with more than 100 employees? Okay, so so is IBM, a good prospect for you? Oh, man, we would love to have IBM. Okay. So why would I IBM work with you?

Well, I don't know that IBM would. Okay. So let's assume now that it's not anybody with more than 100 employees, there's probably an upper limit to the number of employees that you can adequately serve, right? Yeah. What does that well, mean? I think we could probably get up to 1000. Okay, so if they had 1000, and you were the client, why would they pick you over someone else? Well, they probably wouldn't pick us those thousand. Okay, so pretty soon they start narrowing it down. All right, well, companies between 100 and 212. All right, fine. So what problems those people have that you're really good at solving. And once you start getting that precise, all of a sudden, you have a different lens. And now instead of saying, well, any company with a size instead you say, you know what, if they were having this problem, it really doesn't matter. If they had 200 employees or 500 employees, we could really help them. But if they don't have these two or three problems, then we're probably no better helping them than anyone else. Great, then don't focus their focus some of the things where you can have a dramatic impact and don't waste your time elsewhere.

Christopher Penn
How do you deal with the lack of differentiation, though, for a lot of companies? So I'll give you a simple example. Let's say,

you know, I used to work at a PR firm.

And the it is that is a very commodities industry. So when you say well, what what problems do you solve? Because I remember we did an exercise like this, and one of our management meetings, and we you know, we help companies get awareness and trust, right? Sure. And we serve everybody.

Unknown Speaker
But you guys were very discerning, you only serve people that had a pulse.

Christopher Penn
But the problem was, from a an actual work and impact perspective of the things that people did. Once they signed on the dotted line, if you were to put one firms work next to another firms work, there was zero difference, you could sit, you could rip and replace the logo, the even the people were interchangeable. They all looked exactly the same, like the, you know, 90% of the

Unknown Speaker
markets

Christopher Penn
say exactly the same, because everything is like robots. And when you have a case like that, where there is there is a clearly defined problem, there's a company that need awareness address that don't have it.

But all the competitors are exactly identical. How do you use the same side selling method to distill out more nuanced, unique factor?

Ian Altman
Well, so when when you start getting into the problems you solve, so the notion of well, we help people who aren't getting enough attention for their ideas is fine. So let me use like a technology example. So they're IT services companies that provide it hosting that provide technology support, you know, help desk managed services, that whole sector, it can be highly commodities, because there isn't a huge barrier to entry. And there's a lot of people in that space. So the organizations that we worked with, and one of them is a case study in in the new same side selling, what they what we looked at was okay, are there certain markets where you have more experience than other people? Yeah. What are those? Well, trade associations, law firms and professional services firms? Okay. So what are the things that are really important to lawyers?

Well, I mean, after practice, law know, what are the things about their technology that they worry about? So now, this is an organization who when they reach out to their prospects, they say, well, when we talk to law firms, the three biggest concerns they have are number one, they're trying to attract younger associates, and they realize that their technology is outdated. And so it's not relevant. So the associated say, Well, look, if I can't just drag and drop stuff, if I can't get access to stuff on my phone, my tablet, Wherever I am, then I'm not really interested in it means they have trouble attracting people, they're going to be critical to their succession plan. The other side is that they've got techno people internally who seem pretty hip, but they don't really know if these guys understand

the latest and greatest technology, it just they know more than the attorneys do. So they kind of feel captive to those people. And the third one is that they're losing billable time. Because Because their systems go down. And sometimes it means they miss deadlines, and they could, it could lead to them losing a lot of business. So, you know, those are the kind of problems people come to us to solve. And other other law firms. You know, how one of those resonate with you people be like, Oh, man, we have that issue. Exactly. And if they came in and said, Well, the problem we solve is reliability of IT systems, they're going to sound like everybody else. But because they took the time to specialize in a certain area. Now, it's where the experts is applying technology in this market space. And here's the funny part, that while they've been doing this, their businesses now grown, their perceived in the marketplace is the go to people for law firms and trade associations. And there were two players who were doing reasonably well with law firms. And both of those firms are now are now just being destroyed. Because the people we worked with now have got the messaging so tight, that the law firms say, Oh, yeah, you got to use them. When three years ago, they had a bunch of law firm clients, but their messaging wasn't precise enough. And if you think about it, look at it this way. And think about like a medical metaphor. You're never going to say to somebody, oh, let me refer you to this person. They are like the best generalist, this person is like, pretty much, okay, in eight different areas. No, we recommend people to specialists. And so specialization is really key. And you can't just do it by name. You really got to invest the time and the energy and making sure you've got the lingo and the terminology to go with that industry.

Christopher Penn
Does that. Does that answer that? Okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. I know, one of the other big sales problems, and certainly one that I could speak to personally, is I lose more sales to this than anyone than anything else. And that is the arch enemy knows no decision. The status quo. Exactly. How do you How are you seeing people succeed using the same side of selling to beat no decision?

Ian Altman
Okay, well, so keep mine sometimes no decision is the right decision. So first thing we have to acknowledge is that sometimes the clients better off doing nothing. But there's a there's a structure that we have in same side selling and it's on page 76 in the in the printed version, called the same side quadrants. And the idea is that very often when someone's trying to solve something, they have this initial issue, if you will. And it's all centered around research that I've done with over 10,000, CEOs and executives and how they make and approve decisions. And so I put people in this scenario, I say, look, someone in your team wants to spend $20,000 on something. I call it a certain Blatt, because I want something that's easy to spell and pronounce. And so you know g someone wants to buy us a certain bladder cost $20,000 requires an resources on your part takes 45 days to implement it, what are the questions you have to ask, and I put executives in that scenario. And in teams, they come up with their top five, then I have narrowed down to their top three. And no matter where they are in the world, whether they're running a million dollar company, or multi billion dollar company, they give the same three answers, meaning the same three questions they would have to have answered every single time. And if we had time, we would discuss it with your listeners. But now, so.

So so the questions that people ask the first one to compound question, which is, well, what problem does this solve? And why do we need it? The second question they ask is, what's the likely result or outcome if we make this investment? And the third one is what are the alternatives? So we need to make sure that through the process, we're focused with our clients to help them answer those questions. Because guess what, they're going to be asked those questions whether they realize it or not. So what problems that solve, why do I need it? What's the likely outcome or result? So inside selling and the second edition, we introduced something called the same side quadrants. And the idea is that on a blank sheet of paper, you draw a vertical line down the center of the page, horizontal and across the center, creating four quadrants. It's a method for taking notes in the meeting. So in the upper left quadrant, we take notes about the issue, meaning, so what is it inspired you to meet with us today? What were you hoping to accomplish? That kind of stuff? We take our notes up there, then we want to find out why do they need it? Which is the impact meaning what happens if you don't solve this? And it's a simple question, which is, after they've explained all that, you go, Hmm, so what happens if you don't solve that, and then you take notes in that quadrant, and they're going to talk about all the things and there's a whole series of questions that we give people to ask to uncover what happens if they don't solve it. And we asked them compared to other things on your plate, how important is it to solve this right now? in the lower left quadrant, we take notes about the results. So it sounds something like this, it says, gee, Chris, just because you pay us doesn't mean we're successful, what could we measure together six months down the road, to know that we're successful? What would be meaningful and impactful that you and I can look at? So you can make sure that you can hold us accountable. Guess what, less than 1% of vendors ever asked that question. And it's magic, when you ask it in the lower right quadrant, we asked some questions that most people haven't thought of, which is, we want to figure out who else needs to be involved. Because we've all been involved in deals where someone's name came up in the 11th hour, we've never heard of them, and they killed the deal. So people have been trained to ask a question that is useless, but everyone asks it, which is, who's the decision maker? Right? And when you ask that question, it kind of goes like this. If I said, if you if you and I were working together, and you were the client, and I asked the question, what's implied is this. So Chris, obviously, the organization wouldn't entrust this decision to you. So who is the decision maker? I mean, that's kind of the way it comes across, right? But instead, we ask questions like, so who else would be most directly impacted by this issue? Who else would have an opinion about how we measure results? Who's likely to chime in who haven't heard from before? who get it or kill this deal or bless it. And then we find out who's who needs to be involved. And that gives us a method for figuring out if an opportunity is worth pursuing and not. As we're asking these questions cliff and collecting the information. Not only are we being convinced that the problem is worth solving, but guess who else has been convinced that the problem is worth solving the customer, the customer is, so I often say that effective selling is not about persuasion, or coercion, it's about getting the truth as quickly as possible. And the idea is that if the client, and you have a shared understanding of the impact associated with not solving the problem, and have a mutual understanding and belief in the results you can deliver, that's when people make decisions. When your client says, I don't know, I want to think about it, they either don't believe in the impact of not solving it, or they don't believe in the results or both.

Christopher Penn
So in a lot of sales organizations, particularly the ones I've I've had the experience working with there is there is the sales professional, the business development executive who is doing the thing, and then there's typically an army of of upfront folks who are doing essentially qualification to the lessons and sales side selling are, you know, don't force the fit and sell the value, not the price. But the lead qualification process almost goes opposite of that and say, Okay, what do you have a budget of right? That sounds like hands on my sales guy? And do you do this? How do you adapt that lead qualification process to align with same side selling?

Ian Altman
It's actually very straightforward. So if you think about it, the way people used to qualify was using an acronym called band,

Christopher Penn
oh, the,

Ian Altman
the 60s, band budget, authority need and time sensitivity. So the idea was, well, we got to find out what what their budget is, if the person has the authority, do they have a need? And is it time sensitive? So the problem with budget is that, let's say that, you know, you live in the northeast, and all of a sudden, in January, your furnace stops working. Now, you may not have budget set aside to replace your furnace. But rest assured you're going to find the money, because you don't want your family to freeze. So we have a budget is awfully often extremely overrated. And very misleading, because people find money all the time for stuff that wasn't budgeted if it's important enough. So budget, not a good thing to qualify on. Authority used to be that while the boss said we're doing I guess we're doing it.

Yeah. And over time, leadership coaches have taught us, you know, what, if the team isn't bought in, then people aren't doing it. So even if you're the CEO, you're going to make sure that your team is bought in I'm working with an organization right now, where it's a multi billion dollar company, the head of this division wants me to come in and help their team. And we agree that the best way to do that is to make sure that the VP of sales and and the head of marketing that everyone's on board, because otherwise it's not going to go anywhere. Now, they could have forced this through, but I just said, Look, that's not going to give you the best outcome. So we know that authority is misleading need is all about these quadrants. So the quadrants is all centered around need. And then we have time sensitivity. And guess what, that's also an essence part of the quadrant terms of how important it is. So what we do is we replace band with the same side quadrant. So now when people are calling up, they say, Oh, we've got some interest in this. Well, gee, what sparked your interest right now? Why is this important enough to spend money on? What happens if you don't say all of it? Who else is impacted by this? What would success look like? Oh, you don't know who would know. And now we find out who the key players are. And it's a much better qualification opportunity. So many of the organizations that I work with, they have that same structure, it's just now they use the quadrants instead of old school methods for qualification.

Christopher Penn
Gotcha. Okay, that makes total sense. Are you seeing in just to sort of wrap up with the deliver impact chapter chapter nine in the book? Yep. Are you seeing sales, people's compensation change in some way, in any way that reflects that to say, like, Hey, you get your upfront Commission for the sale, but then there's a portion that's withheld until the person stays if they remain a client for three, six and nine to 12 months?

Ian Altman
or more importantly, do they see the results? So it could be at the beginning of the sales process. Now with the quadrants, we're actually identifying what's going to be measured in terms of results. So there are organizations I work with who have structured their compensation plans, and they don't say we're withholding things, they just say, oh, and you get a 10% overall bonus on the deal. If in the timeframe that you agreed to with the customer, if they get verifiable results. Now, someone will say, well, but it's not my responsibility to deliver the results. No, but it is your responsibility to manage expectations appropriately with the client. So this way, you're not selling hype, you're selling what you can actually deliver. And the interesting thing is, if you deliver results, you're likely to get repeat and referral business. And if you don't, people aren't going to see it as valuable. See, a lot of organizations they sell resources, not results, oh, I'm going to give you so many hours of this person's time. Never has a client thought, you know, what I need is I need like 27.4 hours of this type of labor category. Now they say I have this problem. Here's what the solution looks like. Here's what the resolution looks like to that problem. And that's where we start to totally change the the nature of the discussion, where we're focused based on results, rather than focused on resources.

Christopher Penn
makes total sense, okay, where I assume you can buy the book where where books are generally sold, where would you like people to buy the book from if anywhere,

Ian Altman
you know what they can, it's any place they prefer to buy it. So we try to make it as frictionless as possible. So whether it's Amazon or Barnes and Noble, your favorite independent bookstore, if they want Kindle, we we launched all of the versions simultaneously. So for the second edition, you can get paperback, you can get hardcover, you can get, you can get the audible version, you can get the Kindle version, all at the same time. Amazon sometimes there's some interesting things I noticed today that the paperback is selling for 20% more than the hardcover. I don't quite understand that. But we have no control over how they price it. So we thought that was kind of funny. We're actually trying to make it so anybody who bought the original version of the Kindle will just get an automatic update to the new version. But I feel like Amazon kind of believes that we might be doing something nefarious rather than trying to do something generous. So we're just trying to work through those kinks. But in the meantime, while they're trying to figure that out, we've made it so it's like the Kindle version, at launch, I think is 299. Just so that while they're trying to work that out, we can make it much easier for people to get it so you know, you can go to same side selling com to get the bonus content. And of course, people can always find me everywhere on the planet at Ian altman. either.com or on Twitter or everywhere else.

Christopher Penn
All right, thank you so much in and I look forward to seeing lots of folks. stop sending me terrible sales pitches.